SinoNet: Fw: A Photograph from Lhasa (EastSouthWestNorth)
Jacqueline and Martin Winter
dujuan99 at gmail.com
Di Apr 8 07:23:04 CEST 2008
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jacqueline and Martin Winter" <dujuan99 at yahoo.com>
To: "Gregor Kneussel" <gregor.kneussel at gmx.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 1:20 PM
Subject: A Photograph from Lhasa (EastSouthWestNorth)
> Sorry about that last posting. I was only forwarding.
>
> I was suspicious myself as soon as I saw Epoch Times cited. Thank you,
> Gregor, for background to phayul.com. I saw the photo on Kadfly's blog
> about
> ten days ago, but when a friend forwarded me that "interesting articles"
> ("interessante artikel" collection in German, I didn't recognise the
> photo.
> I wanted to look for the original story in Hindustan Times (which has
> nothing to do with the photo) but didn't have time at the moment. If any
> of
> you have been to my blog, you may have noticed the blogroll. Those are
> some
> of the sources I actually did consult myself in the last few weeks.
>
> I forwarded the stuff in German to see if any of you had heard of the
> contentions, especially about the photo. I should have recognized the
> photo!
> And I should have said that I was only forwarding.
>
> On the other hand: Yes, Radio Free Asia was mentioned in the same sentence
> as BBC. So what? Please don't start to lecture people as soon as you see
> certain words. The source contended that the Chinese embassy in India gave
> a
> doctored photo to BBC and Radio Free Asia. Radio Free Asia was not a
> source.
> Neither was BBC.
>
> When I read this photo story , before I forwarded it, I found it strange
> that I hadn't heard about it anywhere else. I didn't have time to go after
> this story. Guess I shouldn't have forwarded it without comment.
>
> I do think that discussing current events in China on this forum, at least
> from time to time, is a good thing. So I am grateful to Andreas and all
> the
> other participants. People regularly get upset in a discussion. But then
> they go on talking to each other. Again, I think that discussing current
> political events on a forum of Chinese Studies graduates can be valuable.
> Many other people have said the same here.
>
> When I wrote the poem quoted here before, I was reacting to news of
> friends
> of a friend having disappeared, "picked" up or arrested in the last two
> weeks, especially in Sichuan. Some people have turned up again. Others are
> still unaccounted for, as far as I have heard. My poem was deliberately
> vague. I do hope the comparison to countries in Southb America and
> elsewhere
> turns out to be inaccurate.
>
> Many thanks to the Sinonet team for organizing this list!
>
> Greetings from Beijing,
>
> Martin
>
> Source: EastSouthWestNorth: A Photograph From Lhasa
> http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20080330_1.htm
>
>
> A Photograph From Lhasa, March 14
>
> I was directed to read the following 'news report' from Sound of Hope via
> Epoch Times. I assumed that the recommendation was made because I have
> shown interest in cases of media manipulation of visual images. To begin,
> I
> am going to excerpt the relevant sections (and ignore the pure propaganda
> stuff):
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Chinese Regime Implicated in Staging Violence in Lhasa. By Qin Yue and
> Qi
> Yue. March 29, 2008.
> Evidence is accumulating that the Chinese regime orchestrated violence in
> Lhasa in order to discredit the peaceful protests of Buddhist monks.
>
> According to the Dalai Lama's Chinese translator, Ngawang Nyendra, a
> witness reported that a Chinese policeman in Lhasa disguised himself as a
> Tibetan and joined the protesters holding a knife in his hand. This
> witness
> also recognized the man from BBC news footage and news photos provided by
> China.
>
> A Chinese woman from Thailand (who prefers that her name not be used) was
> studying in Lhasa when the protests broke out in March. As one of her
> friends is a policeman, she visited him at the local police station quite
> often and got to know other policemen there. After the protests on March
> 14, she and other foreigners were sent to the police station where she saw
> a
> man with a knife in his hand walking in with some arrested Tibetans. The
> man
> later took off the Tibetan-style clothes and put on a police uniform.
>
> This woman was sent out of Lhasa with other foreigners the next day. When
> she arrived in India via Nepal, she recognized the policeman she had seen
> in
> Tibetan garb from BBC TV news and photos that the Chinese embassy had
> provided to the media.
>
> Ngawang Nyendra said the witness was shocked when she saw the policeman
> in
> the BBC broadcast. She realized then that the man had disguised himself as
> a
> Tibetan in order to incite people to riot. The witness contacted a
> Tibetan
> organization in India and told them what she had seen. At a rally on March
> 17, the organization publicized a news photo originally provided by the
> Chinese Embassy in India in which the policeman appeared as a Tibetan
> rioter.
>
> On Xinhua and other Chinese-language Web sites friendly to the regime,
> after the rally at which the witness spoke, the policeman in disguise had
> disappeared from photos taken at the same scene in which he had previously
> been visible. Recently, the original man-with-the-knife photo has returned
> to these Web sites.
>
> Ngawang Nyendra said, "This photo with this man in it was sent by the
> Chinese embassy to BBC and Radio Free Asia. The other photo was sent out
> later. They are exactly the same except the man has disappeared from the
> second photo. From the TV news footage, you can see this man attempting
> to
> stab other people with a knife. But in later shots you can't find this
> person any more. They were acting. After people raised questions about
> these shots, this footage never appeared on TV again."
>
>
> This is the uncropped photo with a Chinese policeman
> in disguise holding a knife, distributed to news media
> by the Chinese Embassy.
>
>
> This is a cropped copy of the photo released
> by the Chinese Embassy purporting to show a Tibetan
> with a knife taking part in a riot.
>
>
> This is a copy of the picture of the same scene in Lhasa
> but with the man with the knife now missing,
> which was distributed after the man's identity was revealed
> at a rally in Darmasala.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> According to Epoch Times:
>
> [The Dalai Lama's Chinese translator] Ngawang Nyendra said, "This photo
> with this man in it was sent by the Chinese embassy to BBC and Radio Free
> Asia. The other photo was sent out later. They are exactly the same except
> the man has disappeared from the second photo. From the TV news footage,
> you can see this man attempting to stab other people with a knife. But in
> later shots you can't find this person any more. They were acting. After
> people raised questions about these shots, this footage never appeared on
> TV
> again."
>
> But did BBC and Radio Free Asia need the Chinese embassy in India to
> provide
> them with this photo (or the other one)? No, they already had it as did
> virtually all the media around the world.
>
> My initial encounter with this photo was in Apple Daily (March 16, 2008)
> and
> this is the online version in its original scale. It has a high
> resolution
> where all the details are visible. Apple Daily sourced this photo to the
> Reuters agency.
>
>
>
> When I went to the Yahoo! News Photos (transient link), I found this photo
> with the relevant description and credit. The photo had been taken by a
> 'stringer' (i.e. freelancer) who reached agreement with Reuters for
> distribution. You will note that the two photos are cropped somewhat
> differently in order to fit the page layout, but this is editorial
> judgment
> which does not change anything.
>
>
>
> Who was this 'stringer'? Well, that it happened to be the tourist
> nicknamed
> Kadfly who became the most important photojournalist for the March 14
> Lhasa
> disturbance by being there. On March 14, Kadfly made the famous Lhasa
> Burning post on his personal blog and that photo was included among the
> set.
> You won't find that photo on his blog anymore because Kadfly decided to
> remove all photos in which the persons are identifiable (see link for
> Kadfly's explanation, but you can find a cache of the photos at Chinese in
> Vancouver):
>
> ... a lot of the photos from the 'Lhasa Burning' post show people's faces
> and may lead to their arrest. As such, I will be taking these particular
> photos down - if you think other photos should be taken down for similar
> reasons please make a comment so that I know about it.
>
> I will admit that I struggled with this decision for a little while: many
> of those shown in the photos were acting little better than violent thugs
> when the pictures were taken (e.g. in the flag burning photo one of those
> shown began throwing rocks at others in the hotel moments after I took the
> picture) so I'm unsure if they actually deserve any protection from the
> authorities. That said, I will keep those particular photos off my blog
> for
> now.
>
> By March 16, this Reuters photo was known around the world. BBC and Radio
> Free Asia would have to be comatose not to be aware of it. If the Chinese
> Embassy (where?) had forwarded the photo to BBC and Radio Free Asia, it
> would not be as a new discovery but as a sarcastic reminder: "Every other
> media outlet in the world is aware of this but you are obviously
> determined
> to ignore it!" It was also impossible for the Chinese Embassy to scrub
> the
> man with the knife from the photo because it was neither the source nor
> the
> distributor -- the world has already seen it!
>
> Was Kadfly actually a Chinese agent assigned for this job? You can read
> his
> own response on this type of charge (see link). But he was not the sole
> observer as there were actually several others who also took photos and
> videos (including the famous 41-second video clip of the Chinese
> motorcyclist being assaulted by Tibetan rioters).
>
> As far as I am aware, there are no accompanying videos of the same
> knife-wielding person shown on BBC TV news or elsewhere. But here is the
> Dalai Lama's Chinese translator's statement:
>
> From the TV news footage, you can see this man attempting to stab other
> people with a knife. But in later shots you can't find this person any
> more.
> They were acting. After people raised questions about these shots, this
> footage never appeared on TV again.
>
> If there was TV news footage, it would have been posted on YouTube or some
> other video-sharing site. It would have been impossible to retroactively
> scrub the record either. The Dalai Lama's Chinese translator seems to be
> stuck in the pre-YouTube age.
>
> As for:
>
> On Xinhua and other Chinese-language Web sites friendly to the regime,
> after the rally at which the witness spoke, the policeman in disguise had
> disappeared from photos taken at the same scene in which he had previously
> been visible. Recently, the original man-with-the-knife photo has returned
> to these Web sites.
>
> How is that possible? Xinhua and other Chinese-language web sites do not
> have total control over the exhibition/distribution of the said photo
> worldwide. At most, they account for only a miniscule faction of the
> circulation. The photo as posted here is a public record that cannot
> possibly be altered by Xinhua. So what is the purpose of such an action
> except to bring attention to the attempt?
>
> I don't even know why I am writing about this because this is a clear
> waste
> of time. Once upon a time, I wrote (and Dissecting An Unfair and
> Unbalanced
> Report was a very striking story!):
>
> There are probably two types of people out there. The first type of
> people are those who believe that the FLG media are irredeemably
> mendacious
> and there is no point in wasting another precious moment of their lives
> thinking about them anymore. The second type of people are those who are
> wary of the FLG media but regard them as allies in the fight for freedom
> and
> democracy in China. Until the moment of liberation arrives, one does not
> criticize one's allies.
>
> ...
>
> I belong to the first type of people who no longer want to waste a moment
> in life scrutinizing FLG news reports. The target of this essay is really
> about the second type of people who apparently know about this but choose
> to
> either ignore or rationalize it for strategic reasons. The problem with
> this approach is that nobody respects or trusts you anymore.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Relevant Link: A few more pictures from Lhasa Kadfly, April 4, 2008
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gregor Kneussel" <gregor.kneussel at gmx.net>
> To: <SinoNet at lists.univie.ac.at>
> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 2:49 PM
> Subject: Re: SinoNet: interesting articles .....
>
>
>> Vielen Dank für den Hinweis auf den Artikel in der Hindustan Times. Hier
>> ist ein Link zum Original:
>> Dalai Lama suggests China could be behind Tibet unrest
>> www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=e92d5c73-0a26-45ea-b2f5-3cd05660a184&ParentID=93e9ab8c-5edd-4bc6-901d-e79fc5c4fdb3
>> (kurzer Link: http://tinyurl.com/4btysn)
>>
>> Ich habe mich bisher in dieser Diskussion nur gegenüber einzelnen
>> Sinonet-Mitgliedern, aber nicht in diesem halb-öffentlichen Forum
>> geäußert, weil ich mich dazu weder kompetent noch berufen fühle.
>>
>> Ich bin teilweise überrascht und enttäuscht über die bisherige
>> Diskussion und fordere erstens zu einem anderen Umgangston und zweitens
>> zu einer kritischeren Betrachtung der Quellen auf.
>>
>> Die „Epoch Times“ bzw. „Dajiyuan“ wurde in diesem Forum schon in der
>> Vergangenheit als Quelle angeführt und ich verweise dazu auf meine
>> Beiträge vom 8. Mai und vom 10. August 2006 (s.u.).
>>
>> Wer Radio Free Asia gegründet hat, wer den Sender finanziert und was
>> seine Aufgabe ist, ist hoffentlich allgemein bekannt.
>>
>> Phayul.com (tib. pha yul „Vaterland“) ist eine Webseite, auf die häufig
>> verwiesen wird, doch mir ist nicht klar, wer sie betreibt. Auf der Seite
>> selbst gibt es kein Impressum und keinerlei Hinweis darauf, wer dahinter
>> steht und welche Positionen sie grundsätzlich vertritt. WHOIS gibt keine
>> Antwort, nur einen Zusammenhang mit tibethosting.com und
>> latengonline.com, zwei Webseiten einer Firma in New Delhi. Die
>> prominentesten Links auf der Seite:
>>
>> - The Tibetan People’s Uprising Movement (tibetanuprising.org), eine
>> Seite registriert auf Thupten Nyima (thupten.com) in New York, Impressum
>> in Dharamsala und Delhi, mit einem Aufruf von des Tibetan Youth
>> Congress, der Tibetan Women’s Association, des Gu-Chu-Sum Movement of
>> Tibet, der National Democratic Party of Tibet und von Students for a
>> Free Tibet, India, und Links zu diesen fünf Organisationen. Es handelt
>> sich um den militanten Arm der Exilanten, der – im Gegensatz zum Dalai
>> Lama – nach wie vor ganz klar ein vollständig unabhängiges Großtibet
>> fordert, inklusive Qinghai und Teilen von Yunnan, Sichuan, Gansu und
>> möglicherweise von Xinjiang (“complete independence for the whole of
>> Tibet, which includes the tradition [sic] three provinces of U-Tsang
>> [dbus gtsang], Do-toe [mdo stod], and Do-med [mdo smad]”).
>> - Voice of America
>> - ein „Tibetan Solidarity Committee“ in Dharamsala
>> (www.stoptibetcrisis.net/aboutus.html)
>> - die ebenfalls anonyme Seite Tibetsites.com in Dharamsala, registriert
>> auf die Library of Tibetan Works and Archives (ltwa.net)
>> - sftorch2008.org / bhopa.com, eine anonyme Seite in den USA
>>
>> Wenn man einige Artikel auf Phayul liest, kann man die Seite schon
>> politisch einordnen. (Wie sich Phayul Chinas Zukunft vorstellt, sieht
>> man hier: www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=18858
>> Ich muss diese Karte nicht im Bekanntenkreis herumreichen, um zu wissen,
>> wie man in China auf den Vorschlag einer unabhängigen Mandschurei
>> reagiert. Diese Teilungspläne für China sind nicht neu; eine ähnliche
>> Karte habe ich vor zwölf Jahren in der deutschen Ausgabe einer
>> Autobiografie des Dalai Lama gesehen.) Wie verlässlich die Seite ist,
>> sieht man an den Zahlen („1,2 Millionen ermordete Tibeter und 6000
>> zerstörte Klöster“), die dadurch, dass man sie ständig wiederholt, nicht
>> glaubwürdiger werden.
>>
>> Als SinologInnen sollten wir imstande sein, Informationen zuzuordnen und
>> zu interpretieren – und das ist keine Glaubensfrage! Dabei stellt man
>> natürlich immer wieder fest, dass viele Fragen (zumindest derzeit) nicht
>> mit Sicherheit zu beantworten sind, und auch diese Erkenntnis und dieses
>> Bewusstsein sind wesentlich.
>>
>> Herzliche Grüße
>> Gregor
>>
>> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>> Betreff: SinoNet: interesting articles .....
>> Datum: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 19:22:44 +0800
>> Von: Jacqueline and Martin Winter
>>
>> Zitat aus „Hindustan Times, March 29, 2008": „Dalai Lama suggests China
>> should be behind Tibet unrest" (Quelle: World Tibet Network News,
>> 29.3.2008)
>> [...]
>>
>> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>> Betreff: Re: SinoNet: Organhandel in China
>> Datum: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 11:04:44 +0800
>> Von: Gregor Kneussel
>> CC: Sinonet
>>
>> Liebe KollegInnen!
>>
>> Ein Nachtrag zur Organhandel-Geschichte:
>>
>> Wú Hóngdá 吴弘达 (besser bekannt als "Harry Wu"): Wǒ duìyú
>> Fǎlúngōng
>> méitǐ bàodǎo Sūjiātún jízhōngyíng wèntí de rènshi jíqí
>> jīnglì 我对于法轮
>> 功媒体报导苏家屯集中营问题的认识及其经历(China Information Center)
>> www.observechina.net/info/artshow.asp?ID=39862
>>
>> Englische Übersetzung von Roland Soong, der das bemerkenswerte Blog
>> EastSouthWestNorth führt:
>>
>> Wu Hongda's Statement on the Sujiatun Concentration Camp
>> http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060806_1.htm
>>
>> Die Sinonet-Liste ist wohl nicht der richtige Ort für derartige
>> Diskussionen und ich möchte mich dafür entschuldigen, sie derart zu
>> missbrauchen.
>>
>> Der Artikel ist bemerkenswert, da er weder von der Sekte selbst noch von
>> der chinesischen Regierung stammt. Leider wird er wohl nichts daran
>> ändern, dass westliche Journalisten sich in der Regel ausschließlich auf
>> die absurde Propaganda dieser beiden Seiten stützen.
>>
>> Herzliche Grüße,
>> Gregor
>>
>> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>> Betreff: Re: SinoNet: Organhandel in China
>> Datum: Tue, 9 May 2006 11:23:40 +0100 (BST)
>> Von: Kim Kwok
>> An: Sinonet, Gregor Kneussel
>>
>> Ja, das ist die Webseite von den Falungong Leuten. Man sollte sich nie
>> nur auf eine Quelle stützen, besonders bei solchen sensiblen Themen.
>> Aber ich persönlich finde, dass diese Seite sehr viel Information
>> vermittelt. Die Leser sollen auch selber die "Screening" der Information
>> machen.
>>
>> Lg, Kim
>>
>> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>> Betreff: Re: SinoNet: Organhandel in China
>> Datum: Mon, 08 May 2006 09:24:31 +0800
>> Von: Gregor Kneussel
>> An: Sinonet
>>
>> Hallo!
>>
>> Ich möchte darauf hinweisen, dass es sich bei dieser Webseite
>> [dajiyuan.com, das gilt jedoch auch für epochtimes.com] um eine
>> Publikation einer Sekte handelt, die sich als harmlose Mediationsgruppe
>> ausgibt, u.a. jedoch behauptet, die Erde wäre von Außerirdischen
>> unterwandert. Ihr Führer lebt in den USA und hält sich selbst für ein
>> übernatürliches Wesen.
>>
>> Die Seriosität dieser Informationen ist zu bezweifeln. Ich hoffe, die
>> Grünen stützen sich auch auf andere Quellen.
>>
>> Hier ist ein Papier von Thomas Heberer (2001) über die Sekte:
>> www.uni-duisburg.de/Institute/OAWISS/download/doc/paper36.pdf
>>
>> (Vielen Dank an Christina Waraschitz für diesen Hinweis. Von China aus
>> sind viele Informationen zu diesem Thema im Internet nicht verfügbar und
>> E-Mails, die bestimmte Wörter enthalten, können weder gesendet noch
>> empfangen werden.)
>>
>> Herzliche Grüße,
>> Gregor
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> SinoNet mailing list
>> >> http://lists.univie.ac.at/mailman/listinfo/sinonet
>>
>
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