SinoNet: Pogrom

Do Apr 3 15:00:11 CEST 2008

Dear Andreas,

  Sorry for the late reply, but I havent forgotten.

  First of all, if my words have conveyed the impression that I was accusing you for promoting the point of view of the Chinese government, my apology. Neither did I intend to make any link between your first email and the pro-PRC ideas and activities. My wish of having a Sinonet not turning into a forum purely promoting pro-PRC opinions has its ground on other observations. 

  My point was and still is: to accuse a political demonstration for the Tibetan people as an "abuse of Sinonet" is not appropriate.

  You said, "I don't think that on the basis of the information which is available that anybody can be in a position to support a political demonstration for either party". My objection to your opinion is: everyone has the freedom of choice about what to believe and how to act. No doubt that the media is full of bias, both the Western and the Chinese ones. We are still clouded by information which truthfulness needed to be verified as well as contesting political rhetorics and discourses.  Nevertheless, I still think that we can already act, based on what we believe.  To call an action based on the belief and judgement of even a small group of people on a forum like Sinonet, without using any force and authority, is NOT an abuse.

  I remember June Four 1989. Having said that some information which truthfulness needed to be verified, I suddenly doubt that if this can be achieved in the near future. Things happened 19 years ago have been buried, stories of 1989 have been told and retold, written and rewritten, and at same point, the PRC version of the 1989 stories have become the "truth" of 1989, at least in PR China.

  Best regards,
  Kim Kwok

andreas.werner at cn.rzb.at wrote:
    Dear Kim,

and all the others who answered to my mail: did you carefully read it ? Apparently not. You just repeat the stereotypes which are always used to discredit those who afford themselves the luxury of an own opinon (and voice this opinion) in a moment when (Western, mainstream) public opinion shall be influenced in only one direction. You call for free speech and free opinon, especially on the Sinonet. What I read instead is an accusation that I would promote the Chinese government's point of view. 

Excuse me folks, but did I miss something ? To get this straight I reiterate what I did NOT say: 

I did not ask for "no discussion"; I did not ask Sinonet to "only allow pro-PRC -voices on Sinonet"; I also did not (for good reason !) comment at all on Chinese government's behaviour in Tibet or their policies; I did not quote the Jewish diaspora (for which I have the greatest respect).

What I DID say: yes, I did use the word "pogrom". Although I know a little bit about our European recent history: this word has a definition in any dictonary you might want to use. It has been used frequently in Western media recently for events in Africa as well as Asia and Europe (remember Paris last year ?). How (and, since I know the author who should know me: why) you construct a link between using this word and the Jewish diaspora remains a total mistery to me. It is not necessary that a pogrom is committed by a majority (unless, just to use a recent example, young Algerians are the majority in France). What counts is who uses atrocity and violence against whom for what motivation. If innocent people are attacked and killed because of their ethnic nature, this comes pretty close to the definition. 

For those of you who apparently don't like an independent opinion I reiterate my point of view as clear as it could be: before we abuse the Sinonet to organize a political demonstration (and please note the difference between discussion and demonstration !!), I am of the opinion that we need exactly that: more independent information and a free discussion. I don't think that on the basis of the information which is available (especially in Europe) that anybody can be in a position to support a political demonstration for either party. Western media (e.g. CNN: since Iraq was quoted: you still remember the weapons of mass distruction ? That's how reliable they are) as well as Chinese media both have their motivation and are therefore not a very good source for independent, reliable news. Which is why I quoted Der Standard and people who were there and saw with their own eyes. 
But, nota bene: what they reported is only about a few days in Lhasa, not Chinese policies in general, not the situation of Tibetans in Tibet in general, it is just about this current event. I repeat myself to prevent misunderstandings: I did not say anything in general about Tibet and who is right or wrong on this question.

You might like it or not: but if you discount non-independent reports with certain motivation or ideological inclination (e.g. CNN etc. and CCTV), you end up with smashed Chinese shops and serveral (mostly Chinese) dead and wounded and, compared to the level of violence a relatively muted reaction by the police.

Sorry to say, but on the basis of this information to promote an anti-Chinese demonstration over the Sinonet, I just don't consider this to be a good idea. And this is all what I was saying. Except polemic replies I did not receive any serious argument against this point of view.

BR
A.W.
fredakk at yahoo.com

                fredakk at yahoo.com 
Sent by: sinonet-bounces at lists.univie.ac.at   03/28/2008 11:51 PM

  To

fritz.pokorny at mac.com, sinonet at lists.univie.ac.at    
  cc

  Subject

Re: SinoNet: Pogrom          
Dear Andreas, dear members of sinonet,

Sinonet serves as a platform for information and discussion. If we encourage the spirit of free speech and free discussion, different opinions should be encouraged and allowed.

I do not see the posting of such a political action as a kind of abuse of sinonet. For me it is legitimate to post a job-hunting message as well as to post announcements of activities ranging from those organised by the Confucian Institute to those by any other small organisations. Everyone has the free choice to decide what to believe and where to go. Sinonet should not be developed to be a place, where only pro-PRC voices or praises for the "Chinese economic miracle" or "Chinese culture" are allowed and encouraged. 

Also, I find the use of the word "pogrom" not only inappropriate, but also threatening and irresponsible. Just to argue with two points which immediately come up to my mind: 1) could the Tibetans who are the minority exercise pogrom against the majority Chinese? 2) we are still in a stage of clarifying facts, or actually this stage hasnt really been started. Clouded by various resources of information and political discourses, I think it is now still too early to make a conclusion and to stamp the whole thing with such a strong term.

Best regards,
Kim Kwok (Vienna)

Fritz Pokorny <fritz.pokorny at mac.com> wrote:
Lieber Andreas, danke fÃ¼r deinen Beitrag. Ich habe auch ein paar Gedanken/Fragen dazu:

In den westlichen Mainstream-Medien wird keine Wirklichkeit wiedergegeben? Duh! Schon mal die Berichte der westlichen Mainstream-Medien Ã¼ber den Irak verfolgt? Kommt die Wirklichkeit aus der Xinhua? 

Und noch etwas: Bitte groÃŸe Vorsicht mit dem Wort Pogrom â€“ von der Staatsmacht geduldete oder sogar angestachelte Gewalt gegen eine (ursprÃ¼nglich jÃ¼dische) Minderheit, die diesen Ausschreitungen schutzlos ausgeliefert ist. Bitte keine Vereinnahmung der Geschichte der jÃ¼dischen Disapora zur Legitimation chinesischer Positionen. 

Das hat mit Tibet ja wohl kaum etwas zu tun. Es wird keine chinesische Minderheit in einem fremden Staat verfolgt, sondern die chinesische Staatsmacht, gegen die die Ausschreitungen sich richtet, wird in Gestalt der dort lebenden Chinesen angegriffen und setzt sich nach anfÃ¤nglichem ZÃ¶gern sehr effizient mit Gewalt durch.

Punktuelle Beobachtungen von Besuchern aus Lhasa allein sind nur ein Teil eines groÃŸen Puzzle, das man nur lÃ¶sen kann, wenn man versucht, die Interessen aller Akteure aus ihren jeweiligen Medienmeldungen auszufiltern, um zu einer Art von rudimentÃ¤rer Wahrheit zu gelangen.

Wie erklÃ¤rst du die Tatsache, dass sich die Tibeter nach wie vor bockig und uneinsichtig den Wohltaten der ordnenden chinesischen Staatsmacht entziehen wollen? Dummheit? RÃ¼ckstÃ¤ndigkeit? Undankbarkeit? Was sind die Ursachen dafÃ¼r, dass sich diese Ausschreitungen ereignet haben?

Zum Abschluss â€“ Sinonet ist die Summe der Mitwirkenden. Wenn jemand eine politische Meinung vertreten, Aktionismus betreiben oder agitieren will â€“ nur zu! Wer anderer Meinung ist, kann das ja jederzeit frei sagen. So gibt es vielleicht auch einmal so etwas wie eine Diskussion.

Sonst bleibt nur mehr der Ruf nach dem Moderator (Zensor).

Cheers

Fritz Pokorny

---------------------------------
  Von: <andreas.werner at cn.rzb.at>
Datum: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 10:56:20 +0800
An: <sinonet at lists.univie.ac.at>, <sinonet-bounces at lists.univie.ac.at>
Betreff: Re: SinoNet: WG: Globaler Aktionstag fÃ¼r Tibet [Fwd: 31.3.08] veranstaltungshinweis]

Kann mir jemand freundlicherweise erklaeren, warum Sinonet fuer politische Aktionen missbraucht werden kann ? Dies ist umso aergerlicher, als die Situation in Tibet offenbar in Wirklichkeit keineswegs so ist, wie sie in den westlichen Mainstreammedien dargestellt wird. "Graeueltaten" wurden in diesem Fall von jungen Tibetern veruebt, nicht von Chinesen. Diese waren offensichtlich Opfer eines Pogroms. 

Bevor sich eine Institution wie Sinonet fuer Unsinnigkeiten wie Olympiaboykottaufrufe instrumentalisieren laesst, empfehle ich die Lektuere des Standard vom 26.3. Deckt sich uebrigens mit dem Bericht von Leuten die ich kenne, die zur fraglichen Zeit in Lhasa waren. 
MfG 
A.W. 

sabine.zhang at sosmitmensch.at 
Sent by: sinonet-bounces at lists.univie.ac.at 03/27/2008 11:30 PM   To 
SinoNet at lists.univie.ac.at   cc
Subject 
SinoNet: WG: Globaler Aktionstag fÃ¼r Tibet [Fwd: 31.3.08] veranstaltungshinweis] 

GLOBALER AKTIONSTAG FÃœR TIBET

Keine olympische Fackel nach Tibet

Aus Anlass des "GLOBALER AKTIONSTAG" findet am Montag, den 31. MÃ¤rz 2008
beginnend um 15 Uhr bei der Chinesischen Botschaft in der
Metternichgasse eine Friedensmarsch zum Stephansplatz statt. Dieser
Friedensmarsch wird Ã¼ber die Strohgasse zum Albertinaplatz fÃ¼hren, und
danach folgen die Stationen Michaelerplatz und Kohlmarkt. Den Schluss
bildet eine Versammlung mit Kundgebung gegen 17 Uhr 30 am Stock am
Eisenplatz/Stephansplatz, wo es einen Infostand geben wird. Als Zeichen
der SolidaritÃ¤t fÃ¼r das Schicksal Tibets werden an diesem Tag weiÃŸe
Tibetische GlÃ¼cksschals verteilt. SAVE TIBET und die TGÃ– laden alle
Interessierten ein an dieser Kundgebung teilzunehmen.

Diese Veranstaltung ist der Beitrag der Wiener Tibetorganisationen -
SAVE TIBET und Tibeter Gemeinschaft Ã–sterreich - zu dem weltweiten
"Globaler Aktionstag" mit der Hauptforderung dass die olympische Fackel
nicht nach Tibet gebracht wird. Wir rufen Sie dazu auf an dieser
Bewegung teilzunehmen und dem Bundeskanzler Dr. Alfred Gusenbauer am
Montag, den 31. MÃ¤rz 2008 so viele Faxe wie mÃ¶glich zu senden. Ziel ist
es unserem Anliegen GehÃ¶r zu verschaffen und endlich eine Reaktion des
Bundeskanzler auf die GrÃ¤ueltaten in China zu erhalten. Wir mÃ¶chten uns
bereits im Voraus fÃ¼r Ihre UnterstÃ¼tzung bedanken und hoffen Ihnen als
Zeichen unserer Dankbarkeit bei der Kundgebung am 31. MÃ¤rz 2008 einen
weiÃŸen Tibetischen GlÃ¼cksschal umhÃ¤ngen zu dÃ¼rfen.

Faxnummer und E-mailadresse von Bundeskanzler Dr. Alfred Gusenbauer:
Fax: +43/1/531 15 - 4274 (BÃ¼rgerservice)
E-mail: Alfred.Gusenbauer at bka.gv.at

Ein Musterbrief wird demnÃ¤chst fertiggestellt und zur VerfÃ¼gung stehen.

SAVE Tibet und TGÃ–

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